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Re: Fully ported Round port heads better than oval ports
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
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j-mac
i have alway pondered the idea of getting a #OOPS#ty old round port head on a mill then mill in on the 45 deg angle then press in some alloy tube and tig weld them in but alas i dont have a tig nor mill and i cant tig weld
would there be any benifit of doing the same for the exauhst side to?

Posted on: 2009/7/7 7:10
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Re: Fully ported Round port heads better than oval ports
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
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I read that aswell and hav be'n looking into it a'little. with some moto carbs straight down the barrel.

Posted on: 2009/7/7 8:20
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Re: Fully ported Round port heads better than oval ports
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airspeed rules
that US head looks like the go for a smaller engine
but it appears to have the round decompressed chamber
you could fill the bottom of an a14 port with devcon
but without some real testing were all just guessing

Posted on: 2009/7/8 1:31
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Re: Fully ported Round port heads better than oval ports
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
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EEERRR........What the heck I'll throw a monkey wrench in the original question. If you tlak to Rally guys who run forest events their version of the hot set up will be waaaay different then those of us who live in the Desert.
In Vegas our event is part of California Rally Series, they used to have 3 events were even the factory Subaru's wouldn't exceed 70 MPH, then at our event on wide open gravel roads guys in stock class 79 Corolla's would hit 105 MPH. I can remember our friend feverishly fiddling with the engine mapping on his EVO trying to get it to nudge past 140.
For Forest Rally, Street driving and tight 2nd 3rd gear courses it might be worth giving up the extra power for torgue but even for Rallycross I'd still go with an oval port head. I've run both round and oval port heads (both ported)......there is a differance in powerband but I just don't think it's enough to live on.

Tom

Posted on: 2009/7/8 1:44
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Re: Fully ported Round port heads better than oval ports
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
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Spoken to some speedway people recently and he said although he has several GX heads a well ported round port is still a better setup with larger valves.
This is also the fact that the longer rod combos dont require huge ports for high rpm operation. The lower the rod/stroke ratio the bigger the ports need to be and vice versa for long rod setups.

On another note It seems some engine builders put their money on square ports and even a D port inlet with raised roof and base as they reduce pulse reversion somewhat.

Ive seen the latest Chevy speedway engines and they relocated their inlet and exhausts on the spark plug side to avoid the pushrods limiting the port designs. This Chevy slant 4 still has square rectangular ports. Of course we cant do that but imagine not been limited by the pushrods and making the ports as wide and shallow as possible like Renault engines.

Ive seen articles on tubing the inlet ports and it seems they are superior for turbo rather than NA applications. In NA simple and careful porting gains the best bang for buck and has better low and midrange than tubing.

My favorite site is
http://www.mototuneusa.com/
for effective porting

Im a great believer of raise ports but tubing a head is alot of work but would eliminate the problem of the exhaust header designs curving to soon and instead can be made to come straight out.

Tubing the exhaust side is useless.

Alot to think about....

Posted on: 2009/7/8 3:03
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Re: Fully ported Round port heads better than oval ports
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
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Although raising the exhaust port might help a bit, it pays to remember that the 'battle' is almost always about getting more air IN to the cylinder, since we only have atmospheric pressure (and a few tricks with relfected pressure waves) to get it in there. The exhaust has the remainder of combustion pressure (when the exhaust valve begins to open, pressure in the cylinder might not be enough to push the piston down any more, but it still allows it to ventilate the cylinder - called 'blow down') and you also have of course the piston thereafter moving up the cylinder to push it all out. You hear about rules of thumb of getting anywhere from 70-80% exhaust flow vs intake flow for max power, the higher the compression ratio goes, and the less 'dead space' above the piston in the chamber at tdc, generally the less exhaust flow you need (relatively) to get it down. Fwiw, there aren't too many engines that struggle to get enough exhaust flow.

Looking very briefly at the ports in the a 12 and a15 heads I've got, and the cross section pics in the archives here, it seems pretty clear that you could get a _big_ increase in exhaust flow with very little effort - the valve guide boss is massive compared to what it needs to be (even allowing for the fact that the cross section cut point is in the centre of that, so it shows the worst point).

This is a good time to talk about valve guides in general. Although I am a fan of 'motoman's' website, and he is on the money (within reason, and with a few extra conditions, which I won't go into here) with regard to beddding in the rings/running in a fresh engine, and has shown some real insight into port velocity, he is also using examples that are 'bad' - really bad (and I'm stuffed if I know what the manufacturers were thinking) in terms of dead flow and loss of velocity and port sizing. One of the letters written in also talks about harleys, another bike for which they could do with slightly smaller ports with no loss in power anywhere. But the same is not so for some of the older 2 valve japanese (and other) car heads. Sure if we want to talk about stock 4v cleveland heads, you can pick up a lot of mid range, some top end (and no losses) by running inserts in the ports (either diy, or commercially available). They just had too much dead/no flow in the port floor area. They also had practically non existant swirl due to the intake port location/trajectory vs the cylinder location.

But not so for most of us. We should also be wary of _ever_ shortening the valve guides. From memory motoman does that. that's bad bad bad bad bad for any street driven engine. The shorter the valve guide, the shorter it's life, and the sooner it lets the valve wobble, and deform the seat and compromise valve seal. The higher lift the cam is, the more it puts any valve guide under stress, So basically you keep the valve guide as long as possible for anything short of a drag racer, or very short sprint type circuit racer, no matter if it costs flow. On K-line type valve guides, you need to leave some of the valve guide boss intact to help support them, as they are a thin sleeve. On other guides, the guide itself is a standalone that can be pressed in and is strong enough to support at least some of its own length sitting out proud from the port roof. In those cases, you'd taper the bottom of the guide so it narrows as it meets the guide.

On the square vs round port thing, a round port has less wall surface area vs cross section area, so it tends to win. it's just not possible on a lot of setups. The chevy intake ports (original smallblock ones) are tall rectangular in shape purely to fit past pushrods, and they undergo serious change in shape as they approach the valve. The new gen V8s are even more so that shape, afaik those ports were developed specifically not for outright flow, but for mid range torque and optimal injector/fuel atomisation/distribution (and given how fuel effcient they are on the open highway for such a big engine, I don't doubt it))

Posted on: 2009/7/8 7:31
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Re: Fully ported Round port heads better than oval ports
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
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tapered guides are a given for durability also there are some
innovative techniques not covered there on improving fuel atomising.

Posted on: 2009/7/8 14:15
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Re: Fully ported Round port heads better than oval ports
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Yes, fuel atomization. Full "polish" is no longer in style because of this.

Posted on: 2009/7/8 19:41
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Re: Fully ported Round port heads better than oval ports
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
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(warning I'm in one of those inane post moods)

If you're going to tube a head why not just fill in the ports, then carve holes in the block and create a proper 2 stroke A12. Every time I read porting and head design info for automobiles the first thing I think of is.........these things need a proper two stroke. Mild port work some exspansion chambers and instant 50% horsepower gain, plus they're more reliable and cheaper to maintain. You also get the lovely smell of bean oil, OK feel free to go back on topic.

Tom

Posted on: 2009/7/9 5:06
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Re: Fully ported Round port heads better than oval ports
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
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Bump

bringin it up again for further gossip and discussion on the round port and swirl port heads found in late engines (not in australia? - ive never seen one of these heads)

There has always been the theory that the more air your
pump can take the more power it can make and I agree the
theory and practice of turbo technology show this to be
true. BUT!!!!!

What if you ran a soft style head for the round ports?
That is you run massive compression custom camshaft with
very short lift and duration along with the necessary
porting modifications and piston design.

Its hard to explain but here are some links for those
interested....
{url=http://www.theoldone.com/articles/Hot_Rod-The_Soft_Head_1.jpg]soft head page 1[/url]

soft head page 2

soft head page 3

interpretation of Larrys concepts

Quote:
Larry Widmer (engine performance god):
I think most will agree that today’s engines with modern combustion spaces (combustion chamber / plug position / piston design) burn a much higher percentage of their (ingested) air fuel mixture than did engines of the mid-eighties.
If you burn (more) of the mixture, it is therefore possible to have a faster burn that lasts longer. If that doesn’t make sense to some people here, I’m sorry.

In 1985, the notion of swirl didn’t make sense to most of my head-designing contemporaries either. Comments, that it could only work in extremely low RPM applications abounded, but by the early ‘90’s, damned near every new head design incorporated swirl-inducing ports and swirl chambers.

Today, I’d like to think that with all the information that’s only fingertips away, most people would have figured out that the engine efficiency depends on mixture preparation combined with the ability to deliver that mixture to a combustion space that’s engineered to mechanically force quick ignition of as great a portion of that mixture as possible. From the domestic side, you need look no further than some of the engines “formulated” for the Popular Hot Rodding’s Engine Masters series. Examples of small chamber volume, combined with lots of well-positioned quench to direct and position the mixture are everywhere. While achieving low brake fuel specifics are not part of the contest, you’d better believe that burning as much of the available mixture is the primary objective.

Don Terrill can tell you I didn’t “jump” at the opportunity to give an interview for Speed Talk. In fact many months went by before I finally consented. I wasn’t looking for a pedestal to preach from.

I was fortunate enough to have been able to participate in a number of heavily funded development programs from the mid 70’s through the late 80’s when I retired (1987). I studied every technical paper relative to combustion I could get my hands on. I worked with some brilliant engineers on mixture preparation and delivery methodology. We had digital fuel control systems before most in the automotive industry even knew what “digital” was. We ran 24-1 air fuel ratios in passenger car engines 1978. I won’t dare mention what we achieved for fuel mileage. For the 1979 Indy 500, I designed and built the fuel injection manifolding for the General Dynamic’s digital Electrosonic throttle body for the Cosworth V8. Roger Penske told us that he’d never run anything except a mechanical fuel injection system because electronics ones couldn’t be dependable for 500 miles. My how the times have changed. In 1986 was given a blank check to design an “optimal” combustion space for an OE manufacturer. We mutually worked through hundreds of cylinder head / chamber idiosyncrasies, and I retired comfortably set for the rest of my life. …..And I almost forgot! During that same period, I also managed to crank out a few racing heads for drag racing, NASCAR, CART, and the Mini-Indy series.
I’ve consulted for a few projects since 1987, but I’ve had absolutely no desire to ever get involved in the “scene” again.

Today…I have a hobby shop. I enjoy playing with little 4-valve Honda engines. I have the ability to build and test most anything I design in-house. I acquire the equipment I need without going into debt, and last year, I managed to pay myself $70.00. I can’t wait to get to work everyday.

I could care less if someone says that something I’ve built can’t or won’t work. If I’d listened to all the people who made statements like that during my life, there’d have been no point in ever trying to improve any aspect of projects I’ve worked on.

I still contend that the best thing that ever happened to me was leaving California (MT, Edelbrock, etc) in the very early 70’s and returning to Cowtown to start my business (Endyn). Isolated in Ft. Worth, I was never exposed to the latest trick-of-the-week on either coast, nor was I influenced by anyone in the industry other than Jim McFarland, who’s advice to me was to always “keep my nose to the grindstone”, and I did. I lived in my shop for seven years. I worked on problems until I found solutions, and if I didn’t understand why the (solution) worked, I took the time to examine it until I did. More people should consider adopting the practice.

Now guys….if it’s not immediate to my hobby, it really doesn’t concern me, so you can relive the “feeding frenzy” of twenty years ago to your hearts’ content….…..and a few of us will sit back and smile with the knowledge that despite all years of change, for some, everything remains the same.


speedtalk discussing Larrys theries

Posted on: 2009/11/28 3:46

Edited by D on 2009/11/28 4:02:24
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