wow, didnt think it'd go this crazy, glad ure all so passionate i was just sayin thanx to those who went to the protests , didnt mean it to go nuts, appologies for starting a political war on 1200.com

apart from that... go the datto

to answer boof's question...

i am a union member.. currently on an eba..

well actually we are on a common law agreement... our union had to launch a campaign to get our employers to sign a common law agreement to say that they would continue to pay our current wages and conditions..

reason for this is becuase under howards reform eba's are null and void.. and also unlawful...

it took a lot of convincing to get our employers to sign the agreement.. ie we had to strike for lengthy periods of time.. just so they would agree to continue to pay our current rates.. there was nothing extra asked for in the agreement...

now with howards reform he plans to make strike action unlawful and a chargeable offence.. so when our common law agreement expires in 2008 what hope do we have?

unions may "carry on like bitches".. and request what some people would call rediculous wages and conditions..

but remember.. in an industry where employers are reluctant to pay what the workers are entitled to... if you ask for a $1... u might recieve 10cents

i agree that there are slackers out there who dont pull their weight... that goes without saying...

the worrying thing is that these slackers who will no doubt recieve the base rate if theyre not sacked and will eventually turn to crime when they cannot afford the lifestyle they have been living while being paid well..

the cost of living will continue to rise.. wages will go down.. the crime rate will sky rocket..

i sure do hope im wrong though

Yes indeed We don't want to become a third world country be working for nothing - but God help us if we stay on the American model of civilized living
"A fair days pay" will differ depending on whether you are paying it or receiving it !!! I have been both an employee and an employer (small business) and can see some merit in both arguements. However, my opinion goes beyond 'us and them' mentality of most employees to how parents are (were ?) raising their children A lot of problems (social, educational,employment ..... etc) are always the fault of someone else - ie, the school didn't do this, the boss doesn't do that, there wasn't a fence/ sign/ multi language warning/ flashing light etc but at the end of the day people have to stop shifting the blame and look a little closer to home.
Don't think the boss is fair - expand your knowledge base and search elsewhere (courses are available for almost all intellect levels and interests, with exemptions for financial hardship so there is something for almost everyone) EACH person is responsible for their course in life as even some people with seemingly impossible obstacles overcome them to move forward - so blaming the system or some other external reason fails to do anything but perpetuate a 'victim' mentality. Sure, people are used by employers - no doubt, but that is unfortunately human nature along with shonky car sales and pyramid schemes Pride in workmanship and a fair days work come from teaching by example - more mature members of the site will recount some of their parents or mentors expecting the best from them and now look back with some(?) gratitude for teaching that you get nothing for nothing, hence respect for yourself and from others is earned through your actions and your ethics not from blaming others or trying to get that extra $1 from the system. There will be NO perfect answer - no one system of government or regulation will work precisely for everyone so the debate will linger forever..... Despite all this rambling my opinion is simply this :- If you don't like it - change it.
Yes, I know every and all things can't be changed overnight, but reading the threads so far most people with positive comment have done just that. Small change or big change - doesn't matter, so long as you do something then things will improve should you wish them too.
Control your own destiny boys and girls !!
Cheers

Quote:

I believe you are exagerating it a bit far but the basic principal is the same. Employers should have the right to pay employees what they are worth. Maybe then it will throw a brick into the peoples heads that believe they only need to turn up to work to be payed a wage. They seem to think turning up to work is a holiday, so why not take their annual leave. Pay them what their works worth and that will make them think.

You are right in the fact that nothing is stopping employers from paying employees more now. But I also believe in the future wages will increase as a result.
Think of it like this;
If I employ 5 workers,
weekly I make X amount,
Divide X by 5 and get Y
Pay all employees Y wages,
2 employees do jack all,
Pay these 2 less than Y,
Now I have a little to pay the other 3 workers their value and weekly I am still turning over the same X amount.
The 2 losers see this and decide to work harder,
Now weekly I turn over more than X amount and this extra brings the 2 now non losers wages back up to their work value.

Not saying this will be the case everywhere, But it will increase production, work ethics and wages in the future.

Not much in life comes for free. Although you still have the right to argue that you want everything to remain the same. You might oneday get the opportunity to work as one of these topdollar bigshots whose workers dispise them.

ah, so we need these reforms to cure Australia's lazy workforce who have obviously had it too easy for too long and have simply become complacent slackers!

What we need is a good dose of third world hunger for a job! What's missing is the "I need my $2 per day salary just to survive, and send most of my money back to support my starving family...". Yep, nothing quite like it to motivate the work ethic. We need those values instilled in us! Then we can all be thankful for working long hours for less money with less conditions, so we can be competitive in the emerging global job-market!

And dont those Indian call centres and support lines do such a good job!

not wanting to upset anyone by my questions, but jut interested in the responses and views of those who are concerned with these type of issues.

one more questions :

how many are on current union agreed EBA's that now think they may not be payed as much if this reform does go ahead ??

a boss/employer is not in business to make their employees rich

i got over working for a boss who was happy to pay his "mates" in the company plenty more than those who just worked there, regardless of their role or what they actually did. I now work for myself, make slightly more than half of what i was earning as an employee, i am happier, have more time to do things for myself and at the end of the day every cent i have, i have made for me

no doubt my view's will be slammed by someone, but if you are really worth what you think you are, in a just world, a boss/employer should have no problem in paying you that. If you are not happy with the money or conditions in which you work there is nothing keeping you there ??

the way todays work force is going alot of employees feel they should be paid more for doing less, hard work is too hard and that it is a privelage that they let their employer give them a job. Pride in their work is going out the window, 'care factors' are less and less, yet we will whinge and complain about sending work overseas to a third world country with thousands lining up for jobs. These people will work for less, do a FULL days work and be just as good if not better at the job because they actually appreciate it and want it

Quote:
Mate, there's nothing stopping your boss from paying good, honest, decent, hard working folk like you more right now - so what makes you think he will when the new IR laws are passed?

its obvious there's a fair bit of passionate anti-Union and anti-Labour sentiment here. try reading what its all about before forming opinions. here's both sides of the IR debate;
https://www.workchoices.gov.au/

http://www.rightsatwork.com.au/thefacts/

Interesting comments about the AMWU........
I used to be a shop steward for the AMWU & in my experience unions in general will support their constituency only if it reflects their own agenda. If not then too bad.
Most people think the union's main funcion is to represent & support the working majority in cases of conflict between the ruling class........ All you have to do is look at a suit-wearing, university educated upper union official to get an understanding of where their interests really lie!

Now the Liberals are saying that our pre-existing Industrial Relations policies are too cumbersome because there are 60-something different bit of legislation & they want to replace it with 1 peice of legislation & are spending millions on propaganda to sell this to the Australian public.
The reason why there are so many bits of existing legislation is because humans are dynamic..... Everyone is individual & has different circumstances. To suggest we can just bundle everyone up into 1 group is wishful thinking at best.
I just can't bring myself to accept that John Howard is being competely level with the Australian public..... Experience has shown us how he regards the truth.

Keep an eye out for the Howard youth....... Because Jack-Boot Johnny is on a roll!
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Aaahh politics..... Shall we do religion now?

Also I might add my experiences with specific apprentice employment agency. AGT Automotive Group Training. I was originally emplyeed and indentured with this agency to complete my 4 year Auto Electrical apprenticeship. I was assigned a supervisor who was to look after me and check on my progress with my host employer. Regular visits from this supervisor to my place of employment were weekly and I had to sign a log to say of the visit. These visits dwindled to once every 3 months but yet when I signed the log I noticed I had already signed it for a previous visit the week beforehand. I questioned this and was told to shut up. Now I am one to speak my mind and within the next five minutes I had my indentureship contract shoved in my face and told to sign it to break the contract. I refused , I was told it doesnt matter if I sign it anyway and that I will never become a tradesman if his life depended on it. I was also threatened with physical violence untill my host employer walked in and stopped it. My host employer convinced me it was a waste of time andto sign the paper and get rid of the agency. I continued to work for my host employer for a few years and then worked for other employers as to experience different parts of the industry. I even worked in workshops where even as an apprentice I was the only auto elec. Without being an indentured apprentice I was required to work 6 years instead of the normal 4 before I gained by trade license. But all these years later, I am a tradesman and Jeff Grove from AGT can suck my dick. I am a tradesman and he is just an ex tradesman who wasnt good enough to cut it in the industry and chose to be a supervisor who bullies young apprentices.

Maybe this reform will give AGT the right to fire its loser supervisors. And then more apprentices will get looked after as they should.
I dont agree with every part of this reform,but I see the benefits out weighing the negatives.
I take the good with the bad.

I am "currently" a full payed up member of AMWU NSW. I have never actually seen the union do anything worthwhile. Is fighting for the right to have an unpayed hour off every 3 hours when the temperature is above 36'C worthwhile or a waste of time, just to show the union supports its members? Workshop disputes between a member and non memeber. Union delegate instantly takes the side of the union member even before the reason for the dispute is known to the delegate.
I am keen to see how the union handles employment contracts with this reform. If I see the union wage a battle for workers to be payed equally even when one worker is a bludging loser, That will decide my future membership.

As to government apprenticeships and employees, in what I have seen, I lean towards agreeing with DatoMajic. I have a friend that did Auto electrical apprenticeship with a local council. On completion of the apprenticeship he was no longer employeed. He now currently works at State Transit. During his apprenticeship his tradesman "told" him he should be taking a roll of wire or tub of hand cleaner etc home each week. The same tradesman " who I knew " payed me to rewire his project car and fit an alarm in his wifes car, Mind you, I was still an apprentice auto electrician at the time. Give either of them a phone kit or 2way and they would have it installed in no time.
I also was part owner in a vehicle restoration business with a government employed panel beater. He was the typical employee that his governement employer was stuck with as a result of the 3/3's rule. Payed wages for 38hours a week said to be working for his employer, but spent 30 of those hours in our workshop working. Minimum of 50% of our materials being supplied by his employer.
Needless to say my part in the buisness was only a year due to his other work ethics.
I also know 2 plumbers and 1 mantainance worker who are governement and council employed. All regularly conduct private work during working hours using government materials.

All these examples are from within the last 10 years. Maybe these examples arent all across the board, but each example is from a different location. I also dont believe it is limited to these fields of employment and to people of which I have associated.