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Main : Mechanical : Engine A15 - stroked to 1607 cc

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A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
A15 - stroked to 1607 ccPopular
SubmitterddgonzalMore Photos from ddgonzal   Last Update2003/3/3 7:03    Tell a friendTell a friend
Hits22581  Comments28    8.00008.00 (1 vote)
compression ratio 12.6: to 1 Claimed 218 horsepower, 12-second engine, hollow valve lifters, 78 degree cam, Roller rockers (ratio 1.60). SHOGUN eletric water pump

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Poster Thread
datral_10
Posted: 2003/11/24 6:38  Updated: 2003/11/24 6:38
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 2003/6/30
From: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 39
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
I wouldn't say 200hp is unacheivable from 1600cc. I don't know what this engine has but i have seen a 1200cc fiat engine in a drag bike around 1200hp. Obviously this was supercharged and running on something like methanol so I guess it's not rerally relevant to this disscusion but i thought it was impressive, approx. 1hp per cc. Also the head custom made from a solid block of aluminium alloy.

We're never told the a15 runs on pump fuel and it could rev to 10,000rpm. It does look like it's had a fair bit done to it so maybe around 200hp could be acheivable! No one has mentioned the NA 2-litre honda s2000 engine making about 180kw in standard trim. That is about 241hp from a standard 2-litre engine on pump fuel, obviously an extra 400cc, DOHC, 4 valves per cylinder and vtech is a slight advantage but a 1600cc engine set up to make horespower could probably acheive close to that.

Poster Thread
Dodgeman
Posted: 2003/11/24 10:44  Updated: 2003/11/24 10:44
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
Joined: 2003/6/27
From: Southern Tablelands N.S.W. Australia
Posts: 8287
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
I am curious how this engine was built with an 88.5mm stroke [assuming standard bore, as the heading says "stroked" to 1607cc]

A 76mm bore with 88.5mm stroke yeilds 1606.9cc Thats an increase of 6.5mm in the stroke & that pushes stock deck height pistons 3.25mm higher.
Are the rods shorter?
Are the pistons special made with a lower deck?
How was this achieved?

At 12.5 to 1 compression, it's gotta be on methanol [alky]

It's got me intrigued. As for the power output, lets face it, this is a two valve, pushrod engine without forced induction. At that kind of output, stand back, it's gonna blow.
Chris

A 79.5mm bore in an A15 block with a stock 82mm stroke yeilds 1638.4cc. which is close to the 1640cc that Brent mentions.

Brent, can you tell me what pistons were used as I'm sure there are many who would LOVE to duplicate this capacity. Oh my GOD, mix this with the 88.5mm crank & we get 1757.25cc. Now thats my kinda "A" series.

Poster Thread
kegs
Posted: 2003/11/24 12:09  Updated: 2003/11/24 12:09
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
Joined: 2003/1/5
From: campbelltown (sydney) australia
Posts: 1802
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
oops posted twice, is it possible for us to delte stuff if we ruin it ?

Poster Thread
kegs
Posted: 2003/11/24 12:10  Updated: 2003/11/24 12:10
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
Joined: 2003/1/5
From: campbelltown (sydney) australia
Posts: 1802
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
hey dogeman, does ur kinda a-series include water jackets that are at one with the cylinder bores?

Poster Thread
2332owner
Posted: 2003/11/24 12:20  Updated: 2003/11/24 12:20
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
Joined: 2003/5/5
From: Okinawa, Japan
Posts: 1292
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
I think the title is a bit of a misnomer... this engine's always for sale on yahoo jp auctions and if I remember right it's got 79 or 80 mm pistons (probably 79) it's not "stroked"

Poster Thread
dongdong0507
Posted: 2007/11/11 9:09  Updated: 2007/11/11 9:09
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2007/6/29
From:
Posts: 102
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
Isnt it there is 220ps/13000rpm A16 in Japan?

Poster Thread
dattoman_1000
Posted: 2003/7/7 11:21  Updated: 2003/7/7 11:21
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
Joined: 2002/8/11
From: Perth
Posts: 2689
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
Notice how low it sits in the engine bay ?
Notice how much lower the clutch master sits also ?
Wonder what body shell this is stuffed into as the firewall doesn't look familiar to me.
Wheres the throttle cable and radiator ?
I'd quite like to pinch a few things off this one

Poster Thread
datsun120ycoupe
Posted: 2003/7/7 13:34  Updated: 2003/7/7 13:34
Home away from home
Joined: 2003/2/11
From: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 312
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
i believe that engine bay is a b310 coupe, i recognise the rubbers to the top of the struts. nice looking engine

Poster Thread
feral
Posted: 2003/7/7 13:36  Updated: 2003/7/7 13:36
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From: Millgrove Vic OZ
Posts: 985
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
Looks like a 310 sunny to me.

I think the 210 hp is someones excercise in mental masturbation. I am willing to be convinced, but! The best I have so far seen from an A at 1600 cc is about 165 hp and about that range. These figures can be done for mega buck 1600 engines. I reckon tops would be about 180 hp if they were very damn lucky.

Show me the proof and not some dyno-honky figures (who can set the air temp, wheel diameter, or any one of a heap of variables to produce lies to impress the customer). Most of these guys make the dyno say what they want, to show how good they are on a machine they know very little about!. A lot of dyno jockeys use the dyno for comparitive ramp up runs to compare the next mistake against the last mistake and have no idea of how a high performance engine should run

If you ever find a good dyno operator (Errol Taube EFI DYNAMICS Lilydale Victoria) hang on to them and treat them well.

Poster Thread
D
Posted: 2003/7/7 13:51  Updated: 2003/7/7 13:51
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
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From: under the Firmament LOL no twiglight effect BS
Posts: 10924
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
If an atiquated B-series or Mg big bore 2 litre can make 200 with less inlet ports and exhaust ports then Im sure an A can make close to that 200 with the right cheque book and well the right everything... even so the life of this pushrod would be a short one indeed. As for this Errol Faggot I dont give a darn whos good at dyno tuning as all machines have many variables and therefore the whole big power exercise is a fragile one.

Poster Thread
feral
Posted: 2003/7/7 14:27  Updated: 2003/7/7 14:27
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From: Millgrove Vic OZ
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 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
Goodness me D you dont run an opposition dyno by day do you

Errol Taube may be many things but a dyno faggot he's not. He looks after a few group A's and top unlimited sports sedans though!

I dont give a hoot about how much a B series engine can be made to put out. Show me a naturally aspirated premium unleaded pump fuel A series engine of around 1600CC that puts out a genuine 190 Hp (at standard temp,pressure,humidity etc) These incredulous figures are largely dreams or boasts put up by people who do not know, build, or tune engines. Their approach to performance is take what their mate got and add 10% to impress
When guys like Datrally's Les Collins (who helped Steve Newing with his engine) can only get 165 Hp well what can you say

Poster Thread
Brent
Posted: 2003/7/7 23:29  Updated: 2003/7/7 23:29
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Joined: 2002/7/17
From: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 291
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
Feral, whilst I tend to agree with you with regards to people fudging figures to impress people and for their own ego's sake, but I don't believe the guy that does my dyno tuning nor the gentleman who has the big hp A15 have anything to gain by impressing me or stroking their ego’s.

The guy that does my dyno tuning didn’t build my engine, I had a miss and went to him to get it sorted, once he found it, he was dumb founded by the figures he sore and said that’s the best 1300 I’ve had ever had on here.

As for the big hp A15, this engine was truly built with no expense spared, I’m talking Cosworth crank, JE pistons, Carrillo rods, titanium valves & push rods, roller rockers, Motec injection, dump sumps, hand built/tuned extractors, you name it & it probably has it. Whilst the owner wouldn’t confirm how much it cost, the rumour mill recons somewhere near NZD50,000.00 (AUD45,000.00) and that was some 4 years ago, I know how much my engine cost & my feeling is that this wouldn’t be too far wrong.

As for performance, I’ve run against this A15 at Pukekohe race circuit, basically it blew my doors off and my car is not considered a slug.


Poster Thread
feral
Posted: 2003/7/8 3:58  Updated: 2003/7/8 3:58
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Joined: 2002/5/1
From: Millgrove Vic OZ
Posts: 985
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
The reason I am sceptical is that at 218 hp, this means the engine has a brake specific output of 136.5 hp/litre!

Specialist multi valve race engines get those figures with a lot of work. I cant see the litttle A series (as much as I love them) coming up with that sort of goods.

I have been wrong before and undoubtedly will be again. All I can say is I'd like to see that

Poster Thread
matbighat
Posted: 2003/7/8 4:33  Updated: 2003/7/8 4:33
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
Joined: 2001/1/30
From: California
Posts: 2973
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
Quote:
I have been wrong before and undoubtedly will be again. All I can say is I'd like to see that

And I'll second that.

Poster Thread
ddgonzal
Posted: 2003/7/8 7:01  Updated: 2003/7/8 7:01
Moderator
Joined: 2001/5/3
From: 48 North
Posts: 31575
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
Lets say the "12 sec" figure is accurate. How much HP would a 1700 lb car need to make 12 sec 1/4?

Poster Thread
2332owner
Posted: 2003/7/8 8:09  Updated: 2003/7/8 8:09
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
Joined: 2003/5/5
From: Okinawa, Japan
Posts: 1292
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
What happened to 200+hp A15's being common in NZ? Now we're apparently down to one?

I'm not trying to be a dick.

Just that, if they're so common there should be tons of info out there... guess that's just a pipe dream then.

Poster Thread
Brent
Posted: 2003/7/8 8:52  Updated: 2003/7/8 8:52
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Joined: 2002/7/17
From: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 291
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
Common probably wasn't the best choice in words.

The reason I say this is that the A15 that was quicker than me was regulary beaten by another coupe also running a very well developed A15, both of these cars had spare engines so there 4 gruntie A15's that I know of anyway.

I'm only going off what i've been told, who knows these things may even have longer stroking cranks which made them more cc's than they were declaring, the weight you run in this class is determined by your cc rating - so there is an advantage in under declaring, but if you get caught your disqualified from the meeting if not the whole season.

again, who really knows.

Poster Thread
D
Posted: 2003/7/8 20:47  Updated: 2003/7/8 20:47
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From: under the Firmament LOL no twiglight effect BS
Posts: 10924
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
I myself find it hard as well to see the 200 without methanol and F1 fuel additives... but Datrally have known to be by many and myself a bunch of crooks. Steve on the other hand is a dude who loves his trade.
He apparantely built his engine to be reliable and for torque rather than high hp, rpm and maintanance and through the 11 or so years racing the A has picked up many tips to make the A a better engine.
I myself prefer the bigger torque than the high Hp but would also like to see why some 700kg utes do 13s NA.
No mate I dont do dyno work but I like to spur a little crap just to get those in the know going.
Otherwise these secrets to success never get seen on this site. Im not saying you have many a secret but I was hoping some Master of the A would speak out amongst the Kaos and confusion as would any high ranked figure
As power to weight.... well it looks like this cat will stay in the bag forever and well never know how much the A can ultimately make even when the right people and money come into the equation.
As for 218 hp well..... if its true, it obviously wouldnt be on pump fuel and it wouldnt be revving less than 10,500 rpm to see those figures. However I have heard and read in jap mags of 10ooo rpm a15s with 13s capabilities and a life shorter than a moth to a flame.

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feral
Posted: 2003/7/8 23:01  Updated: 2003/7/8 23:01
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Joined: 2002/5/1
From: Millgrove Vic OZ
Posts: 985
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
Have any of the Sydney based listers ever raced against Steve Newings in his old 1200 race car?

It would be interesting to see some performance comparisons with say John Bostons car?

Poster Thread
sunny
Posted: 2003/11/23 14:26  Updated: 2003/11/23 14:26
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Joined: 2003/7/13
From: T'ville
Posts: 491
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
errol is on the money once again, i'm yet to see an a series over 170hp, i remember reading a magazine story about formula ford race engines(i think these are 2L) and they haven't cracked the 200hp yet

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Buff
Posted: 2003/11/23 21:34  Updated: 2003/11/23 21:34
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Joined: 2002/11/30
From: Tas
Posts: 365
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
I've read this huuge! thread and just wanted to give my 50 cents worth:

People seem to be too concerned with HP figures. They are exactly that - "Figures". A great engine whether it makes 200HP or not is only as good as its weakest link, which could be its gearbox, driveline whatever. I think 90% of the time its the driver.
As a motorcycle rider I've seen this way too often, guys go out with the big ego thing, have to have the latest R1, GSXR1000 or what ever only to find that the majority of these guys couldn't ride the thing to a 1/4 of its potential and I guess it's the same with HP figures. These bikes make big HP per litre figures only to be cleaned up by a guy who CAN ride on a 2 year old 600..............................
It always makes me laugh to see these club racing guys to have their trick cars with everything lightened and removed to save weight - carbonfibre, fibreglass, no interior etc - only to see a guy jump in to drive that weighs about 100kg. Makes no sense.
So lets not become obsessed with the HP figures after a while they start to sound like old fishin stories.........it WAS this BIG


Poster Thread
stirlingmac
Posted: 2003/11/23 22:10  Updated: 2003/11/23 22:10
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Joined: 2000/5/6
From: Wellington New Zealand
Posts: 962
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
The man responsible for building the fabled 200+ A series is Tony Marsh. His own 1200 was one of the quickest ever in circuit competition. As for skills as a builder he is one of the best in the world. He also built a 351 Windsor for a rail dragster and it is currently the fastest smallest smallblock Ford powered car in the world, Tony knows his stuff !!! As I have explained in previous posts Bryan's engines and Ben's have few original A series parts left in them. Photos of the differences is rare and I'm not going to take the risk of posting any cos the owners paid a huge amount of money for the development of these engines. I have on many occasions seen these cars perform and have made many bigger engined cars look slow.

Poster Thread
D
Posted: 2003/7/7 2:25  Updated: 2003/7/7 2:25
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
Joined: 2002/10/28
From: under the Firmament LOL no twiglight effect BS
Posts: 10924
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
DD can you get more info on this engine 215+ hp is reidiculously high but if its a jap built engine no wonder (they dont have a life besides their hobby most times!). There are so many trick things like there seems to be no water pump pulley and the outlet is some alloy thing to the radiator that Ive never seen. And that braided hose connected to tank which seems to go to the back of the head?
The only problem is that we dont see this kind of engine in more of our engine bays

Poster Thread
ddgonzal
Posted: 2003/7/7 4:10  Updated: 2003/7/7 4:10
Moderator
Joined: 2001/5/3
From: 48 North
Posts: 31575
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
This was from an ad and was nearly all the info provided. The "218 PS" was almost for sure a guestimate. Few people actually dyno their engines ... and 215+ seems nearly impossible from a 1600cc a-engine.

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Brent
Posted: 2003/7/7 4:57  Updated: 2003/7/7 4:57
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Joined: 2002/7/17
From: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 291
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
200+hp A15's are common in NZ (but not cheap) and there are heaps of variables involved with dyno’s i.e. atmosphere/weather conditions on the day, equipment, gearing & drive components, even tyres on the rolling road type dyno's.
Even if you’re applying a conservative +/-5% variation ratio you’re talking 190 to 210 hp

I have actually seen a A15 bored to 1640cc, dry sump, motec injection, roller rockers, hand built/tuned extractors and all the goodies you can name, rumour has it, it had over 220hp according to the owner.

I guess what I’m saying is that 218+hp is possible with an open cheque book & the right engine builder.


Poster Thread
ddgonzal
Posted: 2003/7/7 5:22  Updated: 2003/7/7 5:22
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Joined: 2001/5/3
From: 48 North
Posts: 31575
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
Good to know ... and the one in this photo looks expensive enough to seem believable. Thanks Brent.

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rally-a-coupe
Posted: 2003/7/7 8:15  Updated: 2003/7/7 8:15
Home away from home
Joined: 2002/4/1
From: Christchurch New Zealand
Posts: 417
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
looks like WEST COAST CHOPPERS have had a go at this look at the emblem on the electric water pump

Poster Thread
2332owner
Posted: 2003/7/7 11:10  Updated: 2003/7/7 11:10
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
Joined: 2003/5/5
From: Okinawa, Japan
Posts: 1292
 Re: A15 - stroked to 1607 cc
Any sites or info on these NZ 200+ HP motors?... I'd be really interested in learning, as these aren't abundant in the rest of the world.