Some good points there WURZEL.

sorry must have been eeating drive through maccas whilst talking on my mobile in my safe family car at 20kmh above the speed limit to have paid attention to my gps system to have nocited this thread on my in board computer system.

Wurzel

On the questin about stats before and after the introduction of safety features on vechicles. There are two broad catagories of safety featues.

Features that aid in the reduction of incidents. eg taillights/brakelights ie likleyhood

Features that aid in the reduction of the severity of an incident eg airbags. ie consequence

Traditionally, features that reduce the liklyhood of accidents cause a sharp immeaditae drop in incidents that direcly relate, but there is a gradual climb back to the previous levels in 12-24 months. This is beleived to be directly related to users becoming complacient with features, and this is measured on a per capita basis, not static numbers.

Features that reduce the consequence and their related reduction in incident liklyhood are harder to measure since the data that is collected from incidents is almost exclusivly lilyhood related. eg were your taillights workig? Not just that, but features that reduce the consequence on an incident fall into the realm of attitude rather that physical items, so the only way to gather data is by interviewing people with carefully crafted questions to gain the right information.

Also, if you look at the safety features that have been introduced into cars over the last, say 30 years, features that reduce the liklyhood are not as common as consequence reduction features, yet it is liklyhood type features that wil save lives as they prevent incidents rather than just lessen the consequences.

Now hopefully that all made sense...

Huh? Can you say that again?

Just for you levey

Wurzel

On the questin about stats before and after the introduction of safety features on vechicles. There are two broad catagories of safety featues.

Features that aid in the reduction of incidents. eg taillights/brakelights ie likleyhood

Features that aid in the reduction of the severity of an incident eg airbags. ie consequence

Traditionally, features that reduce the liklyhood of accidents cause a sharp immeaditae drop in incidents that direcly relate, but there is a gradual climb back to the previous levels in 12-24 months. This is beleived to be directly related to users becoming complacient with features, and this is measured on a per capita basis, not static numbers.

Features that reduce the consequence and their related reduction in incident liklyhood are harder to measure since the data that is collected from incidents is almost exclusivly lilyhood related. eg were your taillights workig? Not just that, but features that reduce the consequence on an incident fall into the realm of attitude rather that physical items, so the only way to gather data is by interviewing people with carefully crafted questions to gain the right information.

Also, if you look at the safety features that have been introduced into cars over the last, say 30 years, features that reduce the liklyhood are not as common as consequence reduction features, yet it is liklyhood type features that wil save lives as they prevent incidents rather than just lessen the consequences.

Now hopefully that all made sense...



or did you want me to make it a little eaiser for you levey... all the floorboard dust must be frying your brain, or maybe its just all that time with Joel...

That IS interesting, so by going by the data if they introduced mandatory flourescent colours and reflective stripping on cars well eventually get so used to them that we wont see them as easily?
Would this be similar stats relating to the introduction of safety vests on building sites?

Apart from being impractical, blacks and greys seem to be the most popular colour on the road these days. Dont get me wrong, I would LOVE to do the wagon in gummetal, but I think the lack of features that reduce the consequence in incident likely hood in it makes me glad its white and "visible"

...and if Reuby is correct, when white is once again the most prevalent colour on the road, it might just be safe to go gunmetal, ill give it 12 months at least :/

Stability Control (incl traction control and ABS) has reduced the number of accident, and the severity of those that occur but a lot. (If your interested)

Without it a new car would be pretty deadly - as modern chassis are 'tuned' with stabilty control in mind - and when i say 'tuned' they no longer are really tuned (costs too much time and money to develop a safe and wheel handling chassis)

If you can work out how to fully disable ESP - you'll find a modern commodore more undriveable than early models....

I notice that wen drivin the work bombodores (08 & 09 berlinas). Turn esp, stab cont off and u still cant have fun. Wen u do break traction it feels like u r drunk driving the amount of feel/response through the steering wheel (not that I know what that feels like!!!).

You cant feel the road or the amount of spin or anything, bloody dangerous really, I much prefer my 120Y cos I can feel how much grip I've got left.

That said they feel like they are glued to the road with all the gear switched on, almost impossible to crash.... unless ur not payin attention!!!

Back on topic

SUV's lick the bag... big time!!!
What is the point, as if ur gonna take ur 80K bimmer or merc off road!!

Mildman

Dont get me wrong. I am not suggesting that all safety feaures on cars are a waste of time, or that they dont do anything, just that individually, the stats suggest that their long term impact is not as great as percieved.

And yes modern cars are certainly tuned with these features in mind, why wouldnt you? As a car manufacturer you would use all available technologies at your disposal (within budget constraints) to make the car as good as you can, so the fact that by removing ESP and Traction control from a modern dunnydore would make it handle like a VB is probally true, but is a moot point since you cant really anyways.

Wurzel, you comments about the introduction of hi vis vests is true, but not in sucha simple way. If you think about what it is that makes a high vis vest work so well it is the contrast of colours against the background. as an example

You have 20 workers on a house site. Nobody except 1 worker is in hi vis. How easy is it to find him.
The same site. Now with 20 workers all wearing high vis. The contrast against the background is now reduced and the impact is lessened.
This example has a lot to do with how the brain processes visual information, and is deeply rooted in the human evoloutionary process.

Safety advisors aften dont consider how the brain functions, as an individual and as a group. Hec the worlds leading researchers are still working it all out, but there are plenty of well researched concepts out there that are ignored becuse it makes it too hard. Companys like tio just make ou wear Hi vis, or change a procedure since it is easy to implement, has immeadiate impact and keeps the uninformed public/media off their back.

So back to topic,
Suggesting that all SUV drivers are idiots, possibly unfair.
A more accurate statement would be something like

"drivers who have a self centred focus on the world, coupled with modern technologies that provide a even larger sense of indestructability, tend to make bad drivers. This in tandem with the current trend of over consumerism (bigger, better, fast more) means that SUV drivers are targered as they tend to be eaiser to identify since they stand out against the background"

Everyone knows about the label that volvo drivers get as a result of exactly the same issue, and the stats support the claim. Maybe not so much now, but certainly from the 80s and 90s.

i have to high res vests for that very reason on my bike ruby, a orange one on me and a yellow one on my bag(wrapped around it so it still reflects)- i look like a tool(more that with out the vests) but havong both colors makes me more visable to idoit drivers that still reckon its their right to drive in the bike lane just cause its peak hour! (morotrcycleists and scooter riders too).

so no matter what can be done- human complacentcy will kick in and we will run the risk of dip shi$ts killing us. Full stop- current flavor of the month- inappropriate vehicles mainly SUV's that drive like morons in a sports car.