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Re: Best Tyre Size
Just can't stay away
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Wow,no wonder those Japanese guys like B110 tat much....

Posted on: 2010/10/21 3:32
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Re: Best Tyre Size
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
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Posted on: 2010/10/21 4:19
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perth airport parking
Datsun 1200 ute A14
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Re: Best Tyre Size
Just can't stay away
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Wow,205??
Will look pretty good with some nice wheel....

Posted on: 2010/10/21 4:25
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Re: Best Tyre Size
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i like 165 65 on front with 165 70 13 on rear.

i reckon 14's really suck in profiles for the 1200. only 175 65 175 60 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              175 65 175 60      end_of_the_skype_highlighting or 165 65 14 are any good profile wise, otherwise too tall in profile like 185 70 14. MASSIVE.

175 55 13 is awsome fun but no top speed. great fun through through the turns and acceleration.

Posted on: 2010/10/21 12:41
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Re: Best Tyre Size
Just can't stay away
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Yea,im still frust bout the height of the 14' for my B110...
Was thinking to put good grip 14' at the frt n 175/70R13 at the rear...
But seems the front will be tall...

Posted on: 2010/10/21 12:49
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Re: Best Tyre Size
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
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just some of the sizes u can get 55 Series
55 17" 225/55R17 XL 101V 7.0" 680 233 J2171
55 17" 215/55R17 94V 7.0" 668 226 J2760
55 17" 205/55R17 91V 6.5" 657 214 J2584
55 16" 205/55R16 91V 6.5" 632 214 J2406
55 16" 195/55R16 87V 6.0" 620 201 J5884
55 15" 195/55R15 85V 6.0" 595 201 J5891
55 15" 175/55R15 77V 5.5" 573 182 J2579
55 15" 165/55R15 75V 5.0" 563 170 J2170
55 14" 165/55R14 72V 5.0" 538 170 J2169
55 14" 155/55R14 69V 5.0" 526 162 J2168

60 Series
60 17" 215/60R17 96H 6.5" 690 221 J5885
60 16" 195/60R16 89H 6.0" 640 201 J2583
60 15" 195/60R15 88H 6.0" 615 201 J2186
60 15" 155/60R15 74V 4.5" 567 157 J3182

65 Series
65 15" 205/65R15 95H 6.0" 647 209 J2183
65 15" 165/65R15 81T 5.0" 596 170 J5883
65 15" 145/65R15 72V 4.5" 569 150 J3183
65 14" 155/65R14 75V 4.5" 558 157 J3115
55 Series
55 17" 225/55ZR17 XL 101W 7.0" 680 233 J2187
55 16" 225/55R16 95V 7.0" 654 233 J3019
55 16" 225/55ZR16 95W 7.0" 654 233 J1869
55 16" 215/55R16 93V 7.0" 642 226 J1741
55 16" 215/55ZR16 XL 97W 7.0" 642 226 J1868
55 16" 205/55R16 91V 6.5" 632 214 J1694
55 15" 205/55R15 88V 6.5" 607 214 J3022
55 15" 195/55R15 85V 6.0" 595 201 J3023
55 15" 185/55R15 82V 6.0" 585 194 J1692
55 14" 155/55R14 69V 5.0" 526 162 J2053

60 Series
60 14" 205/60R14 XL 92H 6.0" 602 209 J2587
60 13" 175/60R13 77H 5.0" 540 177 J3039

65 Series
65 14" 155/65R14 75V 4.5" 558 157 J2167
55 Series
55 16" 205/55R16 XL 94V 6.5" 632 214 J2703
55 16" 185/55R16 83V 6.0" 610 194 J3112
55 14" 185/55R14 80H 6.0" 560 194 J2709

60 Series
60 16" 225/60R16 98V 6.5" 676 228 J2713
60 16" 215/60R16 XL 99V 6.5" 664 221 J3045
60 15" 225/60R15 96V 6.5" 651 228 J2714
60 15" 215/60R15 94H 6.5" 639 221 J2712
60 15" 205/60R15 91H 6.0" 576 209 J2708
60 15" 195/60R15 88H 6.0" 615 201 J2281
60 14" 215/60R14 91H 6.5" 614 221 J2731
60 14" 205/60R14 88H 6.0" 602 209 J2716
60 14" 195/60R14 86H 6.0" 590 201 J2455
60 14" 185/60R14 82H 5.5" 578 189 J2717
60 13" 205/60R13 86H 6.0" 576 209 J2730
60 13" 185/60R13 80H 5.5" 552 189 J2458

65 Series
65 15" 215/65R15 96H 6.5" 661 221 J2729
65 15" 205/65R15 95H 6.0" 647 209 J2707
65 15" 195/65R15 91V 6.0" 635 201 J2552
65 15" 195/65R15 91H 6.0" 635 201 J2704
65 15" 185/65R15 88H 5.5" 621 189 J2291
65 14" 195/65R14 89H 6.0" 610 201 J2456
65 14" 185/65R14 86H 5.5" 596 189 J2710
65 14" 175/65R14 82H 5.0" 584 177 J2711
65 13" 155/65R13 73T 4.5" 532 157 J2720

70 Series
70 14" 205/70R14 95H 6.0" 644 209 J2726
70 14" 195/70R14 91H 6.0" 630 201 J2723
70 14" 185/70R14 88H 5.5" 616 189 J2394
70 14" 175/70R14 84H 5.0" 602 177 J2725
70 13" 185/70R13 86H 5.5" 590 189 J2724
70 13" 175/70R13 82H 5.0" 576 177 J2721
70 13" 165/70R13 79T 5.0" 562 170 J2727
70 13" 155/70R13 75T 4.5" 548 157 J2401
70 13" 145/70R13 71T 4.5" 534 150 J2399
55 17" 215/55R17 94V 7.0" 668 226 J2593
55 16" 195/55R16 87V 6.0" 620 201 J2461
55 14" 185/55R14 80H 6.0" 560 194 J1757
55 13" 165/55R13 70H 5.0" 512 170 J1753

60 Series
60 16" 235/60R16 100V 7.0" 688 240 J2604
60 16" 225/60R16 98V 6.5" 676 228 J2602
60 16" 215/60R16 99H 6.5" 664 221 J3043
60 16" 205/60R16 XL 96H 6.0" 652 209 J2091
60 16" 205/60R16 XL 96V 6.0" 652 209 J2462
60 16" 175/60R16 82H 5.0" 616 177 J2096
60 15" 225/60R15 96V 6.5" 651 228 J2603
60 15" 215/60R15 94H 6.5" 639 221 J2678
60 15" 205/60R15 91V 6.0" 627 209 J1913
60 15" 205/60R15 91H 6.0" 627 209 J2677
60 15" 195/60R15 88H 6.0" 615 201 J2676
60 15" 195/60R15 88V 6.0" 615 201 J3317
60 15" 185/60R15 XL 88H 5.5" 603 189 J2702
60 14" 205/60R14 88H 6.0" 602 209 J2681
60 14" 195/60R14 86H 6.0" 590 201 J2673
60 14" 185/60R14 82V 5.5" 578 189 J1859
60 14" 185/60R14 82H 5.5" 578 189 J2672
60 14" 175/60R14 79H 5.0" 566 177 J1755
60 13" 205/60R13 86H 6.0" 576 209 J2679
60 13" 185/60R13 80H 5.5" 552 189 J2682
60 13" 175/60R13 77H 5.0" 540 177 J2683

65 Series
65 15" 215/65R15 96H 6.5" 661 221 J2675
65 15" 205/65R15 95V 6.0" 647 209 J1915
65 15" 205/65R15 95H 6.0" 647 209 J2650
65 15" 195/65R15 91V 6.0" 635 201 J2649
65 15" 195/65R15 91H 6.0" 635 201 J1649
65 15" 185/65R15 XL 92H 5.5" 621 189 J3666
65 15" 175/65R15 XL 88H 5.0" 609 177 J2460
65 14" 195/65R14 89H 6.0" 610 201 J2671
65 14" 185/65R14 86H 5.5" 596 189 J2669
65 14" 175/65R14 82H 5.0" 584 177 J2670
65 14" 165/65R14 79H 5.0" 570 170 J2684
65 13" 165/65R13 77H 5.0" 544 170 J2674

80 Series

Posted on: 2010/10/21 15:23
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Re: Best Tyre Size
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
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First up a 185/60-14 should work well. If you're trying to negate the understeer, with a locked diff you're treating a symptom. Get a limited slip diff (sell off some stuff , bite the bullet what ever you need if price is the issue). One other question is the 150HP at the rear wheels (this would explain the locked diff)? 205/60-14 or even slightly wider with a 150 rwhp won't be an issue as far as the motor coping with spinning 4 giant flywheels. As an example I'm running 185/60-13's and the car corners just as quick, if not quicker, as any modern car on track. For track work you can put such a wide tire on the car that they don't really come up to temp like a more narrow tire would. Keep in mind car is putting out 73 rwhp.

As for the weight distribution if you have the ability to set cross weights (LF to RR, Rf to LR) then work on that, see if you can get the corners with in 5-10lbs of each other.

My advice, ditch the locked, get a limited slip ,then make your decision on tire sizes but I expect 185mm wide or slightly bigger to be about right. Some of the guys with more powerful cars might have better advice.

Tom

Posted on: 2010/10/21 16:39
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Re: Best Tyre Size
Just can't stay away
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Rallytwit,nice info...
Really need to retune everything...
Thanks for the advice....

Posted on: 2010/10/21 16:58
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Re: Best Tyre Size
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
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Oh boy is this a good question - and the answer isn't always as simple as it might seem (and I'll also state for the record that I didn't totally work this out for myself, thanks Carroll Smith).

Believe it or not, tyre width (by itself) doesn't affect grip. Grip is a result of the friction coefficient of the tyre tread and the downforce applied to it. If you put 1kg load on a tyre and it took 1 kilo of force to push it sideways, then if you put 2kg on it'd take 2 kg of force to move it side ways. Another tyre might take 1.5kg to push a 1kg load sideways, due to stickier tread. On a related note, you can also look at it like this (about the downforce). If you double the tyre contact patch (double tyre width for example) then each square cm (or square inch for people who don't use the metric system primarily, and for the record I'm one of them) will only have half as much downforce/load on it. So effectively, the grip stays the same.

Now as a tread is compacted/squeezed from heavier and heavier loads hysterisis will mean that even with teh same tread, the friction co-efficient actually decreases. But it's only a very relatively small amount. So in other words, if you have a way too small tyre with way too much load, it'll start to lose grip (aside from other factors that also affect it) . So you can't go too small.

Additionally, even though the grip would be the same, if you ran a small tyre, it could overheat the tread, and then it would lose grip big time, so you can't go too small either. Or another way of putting it is this - if a tyre manufacturer produces two tyres in the same tread/model, but one is way wider than the other, then the narrow one would be more easily overheated, so they have to run a harder compound. A larger/wider tyre won't overheat as easily, so they can run a softer compound. And related to that, the larger tyre has more tread (in total volume/mass) so for the same compound as a narrow tyre, it would take much longer to wear out. So, again, they can run a softer (with better grip) tread compound on the larger tyre and still get acceptable tyre life.

So in a nutshell - the wider tyres only grip better, because generally the manufacturers can use softer rubber compouds with better grip, not because of the width all by itself.

With that general topic understood, it can then be clearly seen that 'size' isn't the key factor here - it's tread compound. So if you had two tyres by the same company, one in 175/60 13 that used a certain tread compound, but on the 185/60 13 they changed up to a softer compound then that is the one to go for. But if the 175/60 13 has the same tread compound as the 185/60 13, then the grip would be the same, so go for the cheaper one (and I made those sizes up just for an example).

Furthermore, you've also got to look at what those general tyre size ranges might go onto what cars normally. what you can sometimes find, for example, is that 14 inch tyres are more common on older family sized cars, so the tread compound would be harder on them (possibly) than for the tyres in 13 inch sizes that were made for smaller lighter cars. In other words, occasionally the 14s are a step backward.

Since it's all about tread compound (or mostly it is) then the next thing should also become obvious - a particular size won't matter much, what is really important is that different manufacturers and different model tyres from teh same manufacturers come in a big variety of tread compounds. Some are softer and grippier and some are harder and long wearing. So two different tyres - both the same size - well one can be downright dangerous, and another can grip so well it is unbelievable.

So basically you really need to look at specific brands, and specific models of tyre from each brand. Some of the really cheap tyres out of china these days (and there's also some very good tyres coming out of there as manufacturers are moving production to wherever they can for cheaper labour) grip surprisingly well. In the dry at least. In the wet some are satisfactory, but generally for good wet grip, you aren't going to find it in a cheap tyre.

OK - so as far as tyre choice goes, mostly it's a case of asking everyone you can about each brand/model and working out which suits your needs. If you don't need to get long life out of them, you can really get some great tyres (not cheap, but that's the way it goes). If you do, then you have to compromise and find the combination of grip vs long life that fits the best.

---

Aside from that, there's also profile - or tyre sidewall height. These days with bigger and bigger wheels out there, people are running ultra low profile tyres. For a few reasons. First of all would be running a 19-20 inch rim with big sidewalls wouldn't fit under most cars so they have to go lower. second reason (probably the first reason if most people were asked about it) is that it has that 'race car' look. I'm not criticising that, it's everyone's choice to do what they want with their car. But they don't necessarily represent the 'best' option.

The flipside of the coin is if you run really small wheel/tyre diameters, or you run really wide (with the wheel offset moving further outward, or spacers or whatever to mount it) - well aside from maybe needing flared guards, either of these two options (eventually) worsen the scrub radius to the point the steering is 'twitchy' over bumps and less stable/less optimal through corners. So if you go really wide, try not to make it a really wide offset (of course increasing 'track' can add stability, so again, it's a compromise - better scrub radius, or better track width, how much of each etc.

It's ok on a racetrack, with low profile tyres, and low ride height, and a relatively smooth surface. That 'works'. It should be mentioned that race tyres often have softer sidewalls, so the sidewall 1 inch high might flex more than a street tyre nearly twice the sidewall height. race tyres also are made to work with lower pressures which produces more flex too. (also - on street radial tyres, don't run massively lower pressure, they won't grip better, they need some stability. About the only thing lower pressures do for street tyres is they tend to heat the tread up more. This can only be a very short term advantage, for something like a hill climb competition where the quicker you get some heat into the tyres the better. But it isn't better for the street (and not for drag racing either). Most street tyres are made to work well with normal heat ranges too, so going hotter isn't a good thing all the time either, even in those small cases I just mentioned that it might work.

But now, on the street, with many bumps and uneven surface, well a taller sidewall has more ability to flex and the actual result is that it can grip better (and improve ride comfort at the same time) than tyres that are too low profile. Not to mention how easy it is to damage rims with the 'rubber band' ultra low profile tyres.

If you go to a taller overall wheel/tyre (even if the sidewall height is the same, for example but one is on a 14 inch rim and one on a 12 or 13) - well that alters the scrub radius, and in a 'good' direction. Can help with stability and generally better mid corner. Problem is, it also raises the car up a little higher, which is worse for body roll, centre of gravity etc. You can of course lower the suspension, but eventually you get to the point that the lower control arm angle with the ground is wrong, So like everything else, it is a balancing act/compromise - finding the best combination that doesn't have too many bad points.

Very generally, the taller sidewall (and it's not really 'tall', like something out of teh 1950s just not the ultra low profile stuff), that sidewall flex helps cushion impact and help grip on uneven surfaces/normal streets - but that extra flex also has to be considered. Remember the early important point - if a particular tyre gets 1kg downforce and takes 1kg to push sideways (which would be a friction coefficient of 1.0) then with 2kg downforce, 2k to push sideways - well the other hidden thing is that to get all of this grip to actually happen, we have to do everything we can to get all the weight of the car being transferred down through the tyre, through the middle of the tread where it contacts the road. We do this by suspension design, and also by adjusting camber and caster, so that the angle of the tyre helps make this weight transfer centred on the contact patch. Since the sidewall flexes more on a tyre with taller sidewall, the car can 'roll over' on the tread and the weight transfer wouldn't be ideal. So to get it 'right' you'd need (compared to an ultra low profile) a little more negative camber (and a little more positive caster) to get the most out of it.

I actually was exposed to this about 20 years ago, but I didn't totally understand it before I came across 'tune to win' by carroll smith (which is still a fantastic book. yes, tyre technology and shock absorber technology has advanced since then, but the general principles still apply) - anyway the 'real world' experience I had was with early toranas (locally made car). I'd ran tyres including 205/60 13 and even tried 235/50 13 which weren't as good (I think it was bf goodrich brand on the 235s) . then I got a set of wheels and tyres cheap, as they only had about 50% tread left. They were 'tiny' 185/60 13 - in yokohama A008 (which were pretty advanced for that time - around 1990/91 approx). Well these 'tiny' tyres absolutely killed the others for grip.


-----

So after all that - the short version:

- tread compound is important so find the brands with the right tread compound for your needs.
- check the 13 inch range vs the 14 inch range as the 14s are sometimes a harder tread to give ok life on larger cars
- don't go too low with the profile.

-----

If you wanted some specifics - it really depends on the budget but at the 'top end' of what you could technically call 'street tyres' which would actually work quite well in hillclimbs (not better than a purpose made slick, but better than family car tyres and similar) or days where a racetrack is open for people to run their cars : (and I'm not saying anyone has to buy from this place specifcally, especially if you are outside Australia! I just used it because it happens to have pictures of the tyres in question, but just for the record, they are a decent place to deal with and are popular with a few people I know of who run various competition cars... Not datsuns, but racers are racers!)


the dunlop d93j

Open in new window

http://www.stuckey.com.au/tyres_details.aspx?TyreName=D93J


toyo fm9r

Open in new window

http://www.stuckey.com.au/tyres_details.aspx?TyreName=FM9R


toyo ra1 proxy


Open in new window

http://www.stuckey.com.au/tyres_details.aspx?TyreName=RA1

make no mistake, these tyres would be lucky to last 10,000km of normal driving, and a lot less if driven hard. But if it is the best grip for 'street racing' (and I'm not saying anyone should race on the street, but just for the sake of discussion) that'd still be legal, and have 'some' tread on it etc - well these ones are worth a look.

If these are too expensive, then there is another option. This option is used a lot by racers in categories where they have to run street tyres, or even more difficult, they have to run a specific brand/model of tyres. for example - HQ racers - which run a control tyre - I thnk Kumho powermax - it has changed over the years as they run varying sponsorship deals. Anyway - they get the tyres 'buffed' which is where they put the wheel/tyre on a sort of lathe and machine away the tread. The taller the tread 'blocks' the more they can move around and squirm, so cutting them short (almost to the stage there is no tread, well not quite - they can't move around and so the grip and consistency is improved _a lot_. The other weird thing - they actually last longer (under the hardest race conditions, not during normal driving) like that. The reason is that at maximum load/cornering, with a full tread, it can start to tear chunks off unevenly, that damages the tread and also causes it to start to slip, and that tears even more of the tread.. So you could get a bit more grip from a cheaper tyre like that, but it means you won't have much tread/safety if it rains, and in most places the tread has to be deep enough to be legal for street driving.

Posted on: 2010/10/21 18:35
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Re: Best Tyre Size
No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)
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John , I have 3 of the Carroll Smith books...........they were invaluable when I ran the sports racer, there is so much that goes into set up.

As for the sizing I went on the assumption that the tire compounds would be roughly the same. As for profiles it is interesting that most folks don't realize that a sidewall needs to have some give in it. A 45 aspect ratio may actually hurt the cars cornering ability etc.

For anyone looking to car set ups. Prepare To Win, Tune to Win and Drive to Win are really invaluable..........some portions of the books may seem dull but it gives a great insight into what we're trying to accomplish.

Tom

Posted on: 2010/10/22 0:28
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