when you say packaging, what do you mean exactly?

All you have said makes sense.

So it looks like it might be the short runners with the plenum on the exhaust side.

1 - cause the plumbing may not fit under the bonnet
2 - If I go with a S/C option then torque down low is not a concern, and if i turbo, then Idont plan to be going with a HUGE laggy turbo.

Hmm still going with the velocity stacks though, and probally a single TB for simplicity if it makes no difference in performance. Although ITBs are so much cooler!

I have spoken to an intercooler maker and he said that they can just put th in and out pipes on the same side.

Heat control, I guess that is just wrapping the exhaust in heat tape and using a heat shield of some sort if possible.

reuby you might wanna come take a look at my car. im in padbury. 0433 679 059

If you go for a supercharger as your means of FI, then go for shorter runners.

reuby i have anintercooler with both outlets on the sme side i was going to use before i managed to get my name down for a crossflow head so i need one for on the oppo sides and im now selling the same side outlet one $150+ postage i havent used it yet so its still b/new

heat management as in intake air temp, water temp, oil temp , exhaust temp they will all add to each other resulting in heat soak.
packaging? as in getting it all to fit neatly. no nasty elbows, nice straight runners using one large curve instead of 2 right angles
dazza

I couldn't agree more with dazza! making a system fit and work efficently isn't that hard, it really trial and error, espeically if you undertake the project yourself. Putting an A-series turbo in a 1000 is a good idea, much easier than a 1200, you get a little more room but just keep it simple. Nice curved bend(mandrel bent if possibe).




the above set up would be nice! have a look through his photo album, in it theres more photos of his set up, but he said;
Quote:
i think that you'd want something along the same lines as that. aslong as your going to put the money and time in to it,it would be a worth while,what do you reakon?

Big V profile


On a side note.................................
You have to get a better diff, i blew another H145 just recently! i ran 20psi out a an A14 with my set up, diff just gave up! and spat the dummy so to speak! but it was good fun! My 1000 is in the shed again. I think its time for a H165 upgrade!

So heres my take on short runners vs. long runners with boosted setup.
Just throwing ideas out there...

I always thought that long runners are better for overall torque and short runners for higher rpm based power in an NA setup because of air velocity/momentum.
We can think of the air/fuel mix having a momentum as it is inducted into the inlet port.
Having a longer runner and in this sense, a longer passage of suction, the mix gets pulled and gains momentum for a longer period of time before entering with greater momentum. The reason why large chokes dont work well in mild, low rev engines is because the velocity of the air through the manifold/carb is low making is hard to tune and slow acceleration etc. Also why high rpm NA engines are so laggey down low (apart from the cam) is because usually they have large ports to take advantage of the large amounts of air they can flow to make large power but now have low air velocity untill rpms pick up.
With high rpm based engines, you want more air/fuel in as fast as possible, so we have large ports to flow large CFM and large runners that are short to get as much mix in as possible in the least amount of time.

So with boosted setup, because under boost we no longer have a suction effect from the piston movement but a push from the compressor, it doesnt really make to much sense (atleast from what i can think of) to have longer runners/long piping. You want instantaneous pressure into the combustion chamber with the least amount of lag to gain as much benifit from boost as we can.
Short runners to plenum and short piping from turbo and smallish plenum is the way to go in my opinion.

In no means is this all completely correct and i might have not phrased it all right but i hope you got what i was meaning to say

Um, well actually Chris, that isn't quite why long runners make good down low torque. Although your explaination does sound quite plausable.
It actually has more to do with some thing called "the Hermholtz effect" It relates to the speed of sound in a vacuum. I understand the principle, but I'm not sure If I can explain it here in such a way that that it might be understood by others. The intake charge travels down the runner in pulses. When one of these pulses reaches the head of the valve when it's closed, the charge bounces back to the plenium, then it bounces back to the valve again. This can happen multipule times before the charge enters the cylinder, depending on eninge speed and runner length. When the charge hits the valve while it's open, it creates what's known as the ramcharger effect. This will only occour at one given RPM. The longer the runner, the few times it will bounce back and forth before the charge enters the cylinder. Obviously there is a limit on how long a runner can be in an actual car. Back in the '60's Chrysler built the 413 "ramcharger". Theses were a big block V8 with a four barrel carb mounted over the opposite bank's rocker cover, which gave very long runners indeed. The result was a lower torque peak.

But I'll say once again, that a tuned runner length will only have this effect at one given engine speed.

having big ports is only part of why high rpm motors can be lame down low. The poor low end drivability has more to do with the exhaust gas reversion, created by the large cam shaft overlap that goes with a big rev motor.
You're kinda right about the big choke thing. As the incoming air passes through the narrowing of the venturi, it speeds up. Then as it exits the narrowing, it creates an area of low pressure behind it which draws fuel out through the air horn and into the engine.
We found on a dirty old chrysler polyshpere V8 with a lumpy cam and a trick manifold, that with a smaller carb, (holley 390 4bbl) it actually had a more violent response off the line that it had with a 600. We put it down to the higher air speed. It also had a much louder induction howl too

lol snap.
TBH ive never looked into runner length etc before. Just took the small amount i knew about the subject and thought about it for a while and came up with that haha, obviously not really correct. Id love to learn more about these kind of things. Physics was my favourite subject in 7th form, its like learning life, ha. The more that i think about it though, the more it makes sense, concerning everything we learnt about waves in physics. I was thinking of it more as a mass than a wave.. interesting stuff indeed.
Next time/ever i get to chch we gotta have a chinwag

When you come down there will be a garage day and piss up/BBQ in your honour.
I sucked at physics. I have the ability to comprehend the principles, but I'm incapable of doing the math. I could never get my head around re-arranging the algebraic equations to make the unknown quantity into the product.

here is a page with some formula's, including one to calculate runner length. Who ever wrote it has done much of the complex math, and simplified it down to the extent that any dummy (Even me!) can use it.