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Re: How do you guys get traction with high hp? And awd anyone? |
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Not too shy to talk  
Joined:
2010/11/23 2:23
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Quote:
unfamilia wrote:
And none of them really effective in our country for speeds below 110kmh- not really practical here- but neither is an awd system either
I agree aero stuff are nice but were talking traction off the line. and well alot of things arent practical but we love to have them anyways lol
Posted on: 2011/11/10 4:12
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Re: How do you guys get traction with high hp? And awd anyone? |
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Not too shy to talk Joined:
2010/11/23 2:23
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Quote:
Rallytwit wrote:
At the risk of over simplification: fit the widest stickiest tires you can for pure grip. The too much power for a light car kinda doesn't really hold water for me.................Brabham BT45 (I think) F1 car, 1200lbs and 1200 horsepower in qualifying trim didn't have this issue becuase it features massive slicks that were up to temp, a street car is not going to have heat in the tires at a level you get at the track...................which brings me to why I don't get the whole street racing thing. Dirty tarmac cold tires etc.................what's the point.
Now you can optimize the suspension and run the best tire possible. There are all sorts of things you can do with damper setting and suspension geometry and tire pressures etc to get more out of a car etc. The notion that a light car can have to much power is silly..........................focus on getting the power to the ground, if you don't want to run the best set up for this, then yes wheel spin is going to be a by product.
Tom
Thats pretty much the point of this post lol to figure out what I need to do. BUT the best set up is drag set up which would make a car sloppy on the streets so I cant have that. What im after is a balance between the two. Im not after some hard cornering but I also dont want to be a grandma driving this thing every time i have to take a decent turn or like going on a freeway on ramp. and I think you dont get it cuz its not for you. think of it this way A LOT of people dont get wtf we mod cars either in their eyes "whats the point?". different things work for different people. btw im no way encouraging street racing, but i do my fare share of back road racing. and I do my fare share of mountain runs on motorcycle. Im sure people also dont get that to lol
Posted on: 2011/11/10 4:24
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Re: How do you guys get traction with high hp? And awd anyone? |
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Not too shy to talk Joined:
2010/11/23 2:23
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D wrote:
I want a better picture of this V8Z any chance we can have a few more uploaded to perv on?
I dont usually post pics of my ride but seeing that Im selling it soon ill post it lol. the flare is black now that was a temp paint.  
Posted on: 2011/11/10 4:28
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Re: How do you guys get traction with high hp? And awd anyone? |
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No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster)  Joined:
2008/10/10 22:02
From Melbourne Australia (and likely under the car)
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l18-b110 - I keep squeezing the other things in because it is important. Hell I didn't even mention that the wider the tyre the less camber it tends to 'like' - which can be indicative of things.
Of course f1 (or anyone else) is running the widest tyres they can (or what they must run) - you're mis-interpreting what I'm getting at. The reason to run wider tyres is not because they grip better 'per se' - if that's the case I welcome you to get some bob jane australian all rounder tread put on some 265 width tyres, and I'll bring some toyo ra1s around to compare. What I am saying is the _reason_ for the widest tyre possible in a racing situation is to give the opportunity to run the stickiest compound possible, but still get enough tyre life to finish enouh laps between pitstops (or the sprint race distance or whatever). It's not just the width.
I _did_ definitely mention that a bigger tyre won't overheat as quickly. I also mentioned at the start of the post that I was simplifying things a bit to get a point across. If you want to discuss hysteresis (which I probably mis-spelt) and how friction co-efficient actually drops off *(albeit marginally in contrast) with downforce, go for it. I'm not in any way taking this personally, and am happy to discuss it at any length. I'm also not perfect, by any measure, so take anything I say on that basis too!
If you wouldn't mind (and I ask this sincerely, not as a smartalec) - do you happen to have pyrometer readings for the tread - possibly - outer and inner edges and centre region - for the tyres you ran that had the big difference before and after. It'd be interesting to see the spread of temp - both from before and after different tyres, but also to know what temps they ran across the width of the tread, it might be enlightening (to me, if no-one else)
What I was trying to get at, and I'll re-state it (and I know you've said that you would go along with this, and as such we are both sort of talking about two slightly different but related tangents) tread compound is the big deal. It's (relatively) hard to overheat tyres on the street, in most parts of this country, and I can't speak for elsewhere, you'd probably end up getting arrested if you drove hard enough and long enough to overwhelm the tyres. Brake pads - well it'd be relatively hard to overcook a1rms with a bit of touring on twisty roads, but certainly possible on a circuit.
It's not so much I'm getting 'tied up' with theory, but rather I'm just as interested *(if not more) in the why, than just the 'what'. I first came across the whole idea as a teenager - when I was playing mostly with toranas (which are understeering pigs in std form, due to the engine location and polar moment of inertia issues, not that I had any idea of what that meant at the time). I ran 205/60 13s on the almost 'mandatory' sprintmaster mag wheels that are so well linked to the vehicle. I then had a set of wider wheels and ran (and I forget - I think it was bf goodrich, or it might have been bridgestone) 235/50 13s. Then I got a set of 185/60 13s given to me - a set of yokohama a008s (remember this is like 20+ years ago, they were 'something' back then - there were also the a008R which were a softer compound again.. What I really wasn't expecting (I just ran them because I had them sort of thing) was how much better the damn things gripped than the other larger tyres. I didn't manage to overcook them on the street, but I also have to be fair and say I didn't push the cars relentlessly or anything, a few quick squirts here and there.
It wasn't until years later that I got some of the books mentioned, that it started to become clearer to me. And I did my best to apply it. I previously tried more and more neg camber on the torries, but it was rapidly diminishing returns (not to mention braking started to be affected). If I get another torana, engineer willing, I'll relocate the motor rearward somewhat. Not only will it improve entry understeer, but ironically they also have trouble out of corners - not polar moment of inertia related, but rather just a lack of downforce (relative % of the cars weight on the rear tyres)
I'm not saying tread compound is the 'only thing in the universe' but I am suggesting it is the prime consideration.
I'm DEFINITELY not advocating running 155 width tyres or anything. I hope I haven't come across like that. Perhaps I'll restate it better thusly - width isn't 'all that' I'm not saying run bicycle tyres, but find the specific brands in the wider sizes that have a good track record, it will make or break the deal. There's (unfortunately) seemingly no shortage of tyres available that are 'big' that are also very mediocre as far as grip is concerned.
the same thing applies to brake pads. 'larger' pads, which wrap further around the disc, don't stop better, unless you are reaching the temp limits of the smaller pads. (*if the pad material is the same). The same is true of brake shoe width. IF you are getting them quite hot, then sure, wider is better, but for single stops (or a handful of multiple stops) it won't change things. NOW bigger diameter discs, same pads, definitely improve things, because then they get more leverage.
and one more thing - that's a wicked machine mate.
Posted on: 2011/11/10 9:15
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John McKenzie
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Re: How do you guys get traction with high hp? And awd anyone? |
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Not too shy to talk Joined:
2010/11/23 2:23
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Quote:
jmac wrote:
l18-b110 - I keep squeezing the other things in because it is important. Hell I didn't even mention that the wider the tyre the less camber it tends to 'like' - which can be indicative of things.
I didnt bother with camber iether simple because my datsun has no adjustment for that and 2nd I was assuming that the 1200 didnt iether. Quote:
jmac wrote:
Of course f1 (or anyone else) is running the widest tyres they can (or what they must run) - you're mis-interpreting what I'm getting at. The reason to run wider tyres is not because they grip better 'per se' - if that's the case I welcome you to get some bob jane australian all rounder tread put on some 265 width tyres, and I'll bring some toyo ra1s around to compare. What I am saying is the _reason_ for the widest tyre possible in a racing situation is to give the opportunity to run the stickiest compound possible, but still get enough tyre life to finish enouh laps between pitstops (or the sprint race distance or whatever). It's not just the width.
Ok for some reason When I read what you wrote im thinking thats what im saying lol. Maybe im not writing it down well enough? or my explanation just plain sucks lol. anyways my discussion is based off the same manufaturer/model. Comparing two different tire brand/model is like comparing apples and oranges. you wont accomplish much. What im trying to say is let say you have a gforce ta drag radials. Im picking this in particular because I know two tires from them are are very close in spec. 275/60/15 31lbs 28"diamter thread width 9" 325/50/15 32lbs 27.9"diamter Thread width 10.8" Both will fit in a 9.5" rims so the overall weight and diamter is pretty close. (I dont know any tires that has the same spec in different width) what im saying is under these two option, IF your car has enough power that your having traction issues with 275 then going to a 325 will give you more traction. im ofcource saying that the wider tire will only be beneficial if you have enough power that you reach the limit of the smaller one. if you havent then whats the point of going wider? ofcource wider isnt always better. the smallest ones you can get away with is always best. Quote:
jmac wrote:
If you wouldn't mind (and I ask this sincerely, not as a smartalec) - do you happen to have pyrometer readings for the tread - possibly - outer and inner edges and centre region - for the tyres you ran that had the big difference before and after. It'd be interesting to see the spread of temp - both from before and after different tyres, but also to know what temps they ran across the width of the tread, it might be enlightening (to me, if no-one else)
What I was trying to get at, and I'll re-state it (and I know you've said that you would go along with this, and as such we are both sort of talking about two slightly different but related tangents) tread compound is the big deal. It's (relatively) hard to overheat tyres on the street, in most parts of this country, and I can't speak for elsewhere, you'd probably end up getting arrested if you drove hard enough and long enough to overwhelm the tyres. Brake pads - well it'd be relatively hard to overcook a1rms with a bit of touring on twisty roads, but certainly possible on a circuit.
none of that, the comparison wasnt technical it was more result comparison. I simple got more traction with wider tires lol. I agree on a street car its very unlikely that it will be pushed to its limit. but at that mediocre level of heat and such wider tire will give you more traction. (with what I mentioned above) Quote:
jmac wrote:
I'm DEFINITELY not advocating running 155 width tyres or anything. I hope I haven't come across like that. Perhaps I'll restate it better thusly - width isn't 'all that' I'm not saying run bicycle tyres, but find the specific brands in the wider sizes that have a good track record, it will make or break the deal. There's (unfortunately) seemingly no shortage of tyres available that are 'big' that are also very mediocre as far as grip is concerned.
the same thing applies to brake pads. 'larger' pads, which wrap further around the disc, don't stop better, unless you are reaching the temp limits of the smaller pads. (*if the pad material is the same). The same is true of brake shoe width. IF you are getting them quite hot, then sure, wider is better, but for single stops (or a handful of multiple stops) it won't change things. NOW bigger diameter discs, same pads, definitely improve things, because then they get more leverage.
and one more thing - that's a wicked machine mate.
I agree wich is why my comparison was about the same model of tire. Obviously were talking about the good quality otherwise that would be the first upgrade(to a good quality one lol) thats like asking whats the best size for drag racing on the track and comparing drag radials size when you can run slicks. I dont know if you can compare brake pads since the contact is pretty much controlled(ae metal to metal-no debris) and thanks I hope I made sence of what im trying to say.
Posted on: 2011/11/10 18:11
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Re: How do you guys get traction with high hp? And awd anyone? |
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No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster) 
Joined:
2002/10/28 6:49
From under the Firmament LOL no twiglight effect BS
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thanks for the pics, what a sleeper!!!
If I ever get a Z it will be the ugly 2+2 with
103 inch wheelbase and will mod the roof to make
it like the 2 seater instead. Also TB48 turbo six
for that v8 and 2jz beating all nissan combo :)
Posted on: 2011/11/10 23:06
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_________________
"Australia" is formed by all its geographically listed territories "including" Norfolk, Christmas & Cocos Islands. The word include excludes all else before it therefore you have no legal rights.
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Re: How do you guys get traction with high hp? And awd anyone? |
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No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster) 
Joined:
2002/8/6 2:24
From Brisbane, Australia
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Quote:
jmac wrote:
l18-b110 - I keep squeezing the other things in because it is important. Hell I didn't even mention that the wider the tyre the less camber it tends to 'like' - which can be indicative of things.
you shouldn't have mentioned it, because its completely wrong. the wider tyre will gereate more lateral grip and work better with more camber to optimise its contact patch during cornering. Same goes for if you upgrade from semis to slicks in the same width. More rubber on the road means more surface area interacting with the road and more grip. Again they like more camber as a result. Quote:
jmac wrote:
Of course f1 (or anyone else) is running the widest tyres they can (or what they must run) - you're mis-interpreting what I'm getting at. The reason to run wider tyres is not because they grip better 'per se' - if that's the case I welcome you to get some bob jane australian all rounder tread put on some 265 width tyres, and I'll bring some toyo ra1s around to compare.
you're not even reading, just arguing your points over and over - as I said last time, "it's obvious that different types, brands and models of tyres offer different amounts of grip. No one's arguing that. But as per my example of the exact same tyre, you get the more grip from the wider widths. Thats removing all those variables" Quote:
jmac wrote:
What I am saying is the _reason_ for the widest tyre possible in a racing situation is to give the opportunity to run the stickiest compound possible, but still get enough tyre life to finish enouh laps between pitstops (or the sprint race distance or whatever). It's not just the width.
as someone who actually uses slicks and semi slicks over the past 10 years, I like to find out what I'm paying $1600-2000 a set for. Kumho slicks and semis - come in 3 compounds. You choose which compound you want in whatever size you buy. Dunlop DZ03 made in 3 compounds. You choose your compound. Yokohama A048 - made in 3 compounds depending on size. Contrary to your assumption, Australian availability of compounds is such that bigger sizes come in harder compounds to suit larger heavier cars. Yokohama A050 - made in 2 compounds in each size. you choose. Bridgestone RE55S - made in 3 compounds. you choose. Toyo R888 - 2 compounds I know of - GG and GGG. Aus distributor network only has one compound available - GG. Can special order the softer GGG though. Toyo RA1 came in 2 compunds. Earlier RA1 (which were on the 230rwkw 1200 I had) had a UTQG of 40 and were the gun tyre for hillclimbing and wet conditions when they first appeared on the scene. Later tyres all had a UTQG of 100, which is the same as the R888 GG. Federal FZ201 make 2 compounds. You choose. there's more brands available, but you get the idea. Summary is no tyre manufacturer makes the wider sizes of their performance tyres in softer compounds as you claim. Even in street tyres, the model of tyre has a compound used accross all sizes in its range. EG all Kumho KU36 are 180 UTQG. All Federal 595RSR are 140 UTQG, etc etc. Tyre manufacturers don't waste money making several slightly different compounds getting slightly softer as the tyres get wider as you seem to assume. The production costs would be outrageous! Quote:
jmac wrote:
If you wouldn't mind (and I ask this sincerely, not as a smartalec) - do you happen to have pyrometer readings for the tread - possibly - outer and inner edges and centre region - for the tyres you ran that had the big difference before and after. It'd be interesting to see the spread of temp - both from before and after different tyres, but also to know what temps they ran across the width of the tread, it might be enlightening (to me, if no-one else)
Like 99.99% of club level racers, I don't have a pyro. I use an infra-red temp gun to get surface temps to see if the camber and pressures are in the ballpark. Admittedly more useful for pressures which don't drop off very quickly, but still better than nothing for checking out camber. My current FZ201 medium compound hit between 55 and 65 degrees across the tyre surface - LF & LR around 65deg, RF about 60 and RR about 55deg at Lakeside IIRC. Quote:
jmac wrote:
I'm DEFINITELY not advocating running 155 width tyres or anything. I hope I haven't come across like that.
what you came across as saying is that width has absolutely no influence on grip: Quote:
jmac wrote:
IF (and it's a big if) the tread compound is identical - then a 235 will provide exactly the same grip as a 195 width tyre.
If a 195 has exactly the same grip as a 235, why wouldn't a 155 have the same grip as a 195? Given that tyre companies aren't making different compounds for each size of tyre, we should choose the appropriate brand/model of tyre for our intended purpose and then buy the narrowest size they have in that type of tyre because the wider ones have no more grip... its just not the case as my example of going from 235 to 255 in the FZ201 Medium compound shows.
Posted on: 2011/11/10 23:34
Edited by L18_B110 on 2011/11/11 4:53:00
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"if you're not on the edge, you're just taking up space"
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Re: How do you guys get traction with high hp? And awd anyone? |
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No life (a.k.a. DattoMaster) 
Joined:
2002/11/26 0:38
From Las Vegas USA
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and I think you dont get it cuz its not for you. think of it this way A LOT of people dont get wtf we mod cars either in their eyes "whats the point?". different things work for different people.
btw im no way encouraging street racing, but i do my fare share of back road racing. and I do my fare share of mountain runs on motorcycle. Im sure people also dont get that to lol......................As someone who used to road race motorcycles I completely get riding quickly but what I don't get is trying to go reeeeally fast on the street, there is so much less traction available on public roads that the corner speeds are slower than yer basic warm up lap.................this is a particularly acute problem for me as my road racing background is in 2-stroke GP bikes, mostly 125cc but the occasional ride on TZ250's...........................if you haven't been on track with your bike, you must try it at least once, it's just an absolute scream.......you can slide the bike around like a hoon and not have to worry about what junk is on the tarmac...................with all that said I have threatened to put Super Moto Wheels on my KTM 300 (it's plated / street legal)............I'm also considering a new Beta 520 dual sport (you can slide a bike around on dual sport tires in a fairly alarming manner if you choose)
OK back on topic:
I can't remember exactly on shock settings for drags but I would imagine if you set the compression on the rear shocks a little softer and the rebound a little harder then the optimal road race set up that would help the rear bite. Sway bars selection shouldn't affect the straight line acceleration (anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). As for ride height you could run the rear a touch lower / biased toward the rear, obviously it would have a little more understeer than the optimal road race set up. If you have a test n tune night at your local drags you could use that to dial in as much grip as possible............then maybe take it to a local autocross to make sure it still handles acceptable although once you round the first freeway on ramp you'll likely know . Grippy tires and a limited slip diff would also be a must as mentioned.
Tom
Posted on: 2011/11/11 3:38
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Re: How do you guys get traction with high hp? And awd anyone? |
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Not too shy to talk Joined:
2010/11/23 2:23
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Quote:
Rallytwit wrote:
and I think you dont get it cuz its not for you. think of it this way A LOT of people dont get wtf we mod cars either in their eyes "whats the point?". different things work for different people.
btw im no way encouraging street racing, but i do my fare share of back road racing. and I do my fare share of mountain runs on motorcycle. Im sure people also dont get that to lol......................As someone who used to road race motorcycles I completely get riding quickly but what I don't get is trying to go reeeeally fast on the street, there is so much less traction available on public roads that the corner speeds are slower than yer basic warm up lap.................this is a particularly acute problem for me as my road racing background is in 2-stroke GP bikes, mostly 125cc but the occasional ride on TZ250's...........................if you haven't been on track with your bike, you must try it at least once, it's just an absolute scream.......you can slide the bike around like a hoon and not have to worry about what junk is on the tarmac...................with all that said I have threatened to put Super Moto Wheels on my KTM 300 (it's plated / street legal)............I'm also considering a new Beta 520 dual sport (you can slide a bike around on dual sport tires in a fairly alarming manner if you choose)
OK back on topic:
I can't remember exactly on shock settings for drags but I would imagine if you set the compression on the rear shocks a little softer and the rebound a little harder then the optimal road race set up that would help the rear bite. Sway bars selection shouldn't affect the straight line acceleration (anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). As for ride height you could run the rear a touch lower / biased toward the rear, obviously it would have a little more understeer than the optimal road race set up. If you have a test n tune night at your local drags you could use that to dial in as much grip as possible............then maybe take it to a local autocross to make sure it still handles acceptable although once you round the first freeway on ramp you'll likely know . Grippy tires and a limited slip diff would also be a must as mentioned.
Tom
well in that case cant really explain it either lol but are we talking about the same thing? back road racing for me usually means a set up race. example a challenge or what not. Usually just another way to show off your machine even though you know its fast. and ya I actually plan to track my bike this coming season. its on my to do list, and I wish I can track my car but the closest drag track is 2 hours away and only open to public on test n tune Wednesday. which means getting maybe 2-3 runs after spending 5 hours overall. alot of waiting in traffic to get there and waiting cuz every import likes to go lol ya looks like thats the way im leaning, did some major read and search of possible mid engine rwd set up but looks like I cant fit the engine back there without loosing the back seat... so back to square one. :(
Posted on: 2011/11/11 5:04
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Re: How do you guys get traction with high hp? And awd anyone? |
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Guest_
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I'd say you may loose some back seat room with the awd set up too and mounting points etc. These guys race ca18 in rwd- see how they set it up . Why reinvent the wheel. They seem to be able to hook up with Tyres. Unless you want to mini tub it internally 
Posted on: 2011/11/11 5:45
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