Went to our last track day of the year (local Porsche Club / PCA event ), I did the usual instruct as well as drive the 1200. First I took a student for a ride in the 1200 and he really liked it, of course his first car was a B210. The track is Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch in Pahrump Nevada..........3 miles 18 turns......all over you tube

There is a section at the top of the track turns 4 through 7 known as Zora's run, you come off a paper clip 2nd gear hair pin into a dip and then over a top of a 3rd gear crest at about 85 MPH, my car skates over the crest out to the exit curbing and given the round about 80 RWHP I don't lift. In the 3rd session of the day I had a Caymen and a lap later BMW M coupe (Z4 M hatch) glued to my rear bumper on the uphill run then as we turned in over the hump I'd get ready to wave them by on the back straight and suddenly they would be 5 car lengths back????

Now the group I'm in is either racers in peddle cars (Spec Maita's, the 1200 etc.) or intermediate drivers in late model sports cars. Late in the day I talked to the M coupe driver, apparently he said "you kinda scared me, the car looks to be a handful".............my reply was the usual you have to drive the wheels off these little cars if you want to get any sort of speed out of them.

So this got me thinking (burning smell);

Anyone else ever have this experience of unsettling folks in moderns? A vintage racer buddy ran an event with modern racers once and they were alarmed by how much the vintage cars moved around............so for a track day intermediate driver it may be quite alarming.

Next because track days are much cheaper than actual racing and folks are often using their daily, they often never end up driving low end low power cars. So are we creating a crop of drivers who are so used to driving well balanced cars on sticky tires with abs and stability control that they never get past 90% of their potential?


On the plus side the PCA guys are going to be allowing the moderately experienced drivers some skid pad time, right now the new students get to do this..............a couple of intermediate guys asked. Having now driven every new model Porsche, Vette, BMW, couple of S2000's and Ferrari's round the place I can tell you they are phenomenal cars and pretty forgiving so naturally I'm taken aback by some of the more experienced guys who are maybe 75% yet think they are running 95% track day speed.

Now I know I drive very well and that I do carry tons of corner speed than most folks (125GP bike habit) but I'm also aware that I ain't exactly Sebestian Vettel (please don't tell my Ego....it thinks it's Nuvolari, Moss, Fangio, Senna, Prost, Hamilton combined, thankfully I leave it at home).

Of course my solution for guys on 265/60-17s is to get them a 1200, Miata or Mini..........feel free engage in old sleds are better comments or other thoughts.


Tom

As much as I love driving a comfortable car from a-b more than my datsun or Mazdas of the past by a long margin, theres is nothing like the rawness and feel you get from an antiquated piece of motoring when pushing it.
The miata is one of the most balanced, predicatble and fun modern cars around still after 20 years but unless you strip if off all its sound proofing and insulation you still miss that raw response.
A car that contradicts everything about what I just said and still surprises me even though some are 40 year or 50 years of age is the superb shift, torque, sound, feel and enjoyment you get from driving a clean 1200 vw bug.
I was bug mad during my rotary years and theres just something about them that although not fast they just feel "period" but in a swiss clock kind of way.

Good fun isn't it Tom.
At the sprints we usually do we start 2 at a time at 10 second intervals so this leads to dicing /overtaking etc.

Never ceases to amaze me the amount of guys that come up and say "what the #OOPS# have you got under the bonnet.That ute is heaps quicker than my V8". Pull the bonnet to show a dirty old A15 with webbers hanging off the side. They dont understand the concept of power to weight and corner spead.The other comment is your inside front wheel is way off the ground in corners ,to which i usually reply you dont need that wheel in corners anyway.
At my local track the ute times are usually better than most road cars and quicker than a lot of Porsches BMWs etc which annoys the absolute crap out of them.

True, most people new to track driving are starting out with some fine pieces of machinery. Back in the day, you started out with something and then "set the car up" to suit your driving style. With cars "set up" already, the opposite appears to occur in that people are adjusting themselves to the car.

If you think back even merely 15 years ago, setting a car up for the track was a big deal. Think of how far we have come! Even now, if you wanted to start with a basic car, the web has so much help and information out there, you could get a car pretty much dialed into the ballpark before you wear the first nubs off the tire. Not so before!

Somebody I once knew thought it was important that no matter what, you start off in a lower-horsepower car that did not have the ABS, Tracton control, etc (grandmother) modules and learn how to drive at the limit and get the feel for that first. He said experience proved that if you would do that, in the end you could take a much more modern car and out-drive someone who may be equally familiar to their modern car in the same car.

But I just build cars...

BTW, Rallytwit I still have some parts to deliver to you someday!

Now I've never raced before and I have the driving skill of someone who likes to slide round the forest, and I know nothing really about going fast.

However I have always noticed exactly what you're talking about driving my Dattos on the road and I reckon,

This +eleventybillion

"Somebody I once knew thought it was important that no matter what, you start off in a lower-horsepower car that did not have the ABS, Tracton control, etc (grandmother) modules and learn how to drive at the limit and get the feel for that first. He said experience proved that if you would do that, in the end you could take a much more modern car and out-drive someone who may be equally familiar to their modern car in the same car."

Understanding exactly how your car handles because it handles really #OOPS#tily is the best knowledge you can ever have learning to drive a car.

Sure you drive slower but you learn exactly where the car's limits are because yur life actually depends on it.

So, when you have el moderno driver riding ur ass cos your too slow for him, all of a sudden theres a good corner and bam.... 5 car lengths behind just because of corner speed.

I agree with you, I think new cars breed lazy if not incompetent drivers. What happens when a safety system fails??

Quote:

In the future modern boy racers will be able to get software from google cloud`s computing database "road life angel" (skynet in T-movies) where its Artificial Intelligence Interface calculates everything around them using Google real time 3D CCTV and makes sure they take that sweeper safely while updating their facebook fans without interruption. A credit card implant in their sphincter vibrates twice to make the user aware of a "blue Angel" moment.

Definitely agree that people should 'learn' to drive in cars without abs and stability control. Without it, if they only drive cars fitted with it, in a sense they effectively never get an apprecitiation for how close they are takin the car to it's limits. Sure the stability control will save them most times, but it also means they will put themselves in greater risk. In another car you'd 'know' not to push too hard in the wet, and to keep a safe braking distance. SO whilst the technology can save one, in practice those without all the tech stuff keep their cars (or should) well within their limits.

Or in other words - ABS etc ends up causing people to have a false sense of security and they'll end up taking far more risks, so it practically (in the worst cases) negates the benefits of the abs and stability control.

Someone on another forum once joked that they could improve every driver's skills and attitude practically instantaneously - and all it would take is to attach a huge metal spike where the horn button usually is :) There's a certain amount of truth to it.

I think you are on to something about them getting a little panicked when they see someone in front driving a car right on its limit. But I also reckon they'd probably have the same general reaction if they ended up behind someone really talented in a hi-performance relatively new car,

Their lap times can be 'ok' compared to older cars with worse power to weight ratios etc, but their lap times would be way better if they learned to take their own to the limits.

Somewhere on youtube there's a clip (well I'm sure there are a thousand others like it too) of a guy at a track day in the UK, I think in a subaru wrx (may have been a mitsubishi lancer evo). Basically he just 'barges forward' using all the acceleration/speed he can, then goes into each corner too hot, and has to brake too hard and has pathetic corner exit speed as a result, But because o the way he drives, it is still hard to get around him. He eventually goes into a corner even hotter and ends up ramming the car in front.

A sledgehammer ham fisted job it really was.

As somewhat of a parallel - in local racing around the late 70s/early 80s, at Bathurst the big V8s dominated (there were many other classes for smaller cars/motors, all racing at the same time) They were quicker up and down the mountain due to their high power output, but over the 'top' of the mountain, where it was quite twisty, the celica's were actually quicker. Very fast, and expertly driven, they'd show their strength up their, only to be passed (or the gap they had just closed up widened rapidly) by the big v8s that would then roar down conrod straight getting up around 160mph give or take.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search ... 1l2l323l2195l0.6.1.3l10l0

some footage of them to be had there (or if that link does not work go to youtube and search for 'bathurst celica'

This is how I drove my cheap 180SX, back when I was still converting it from drift setup to grip...
http://www.youtube.com/v/AxNw2Z6u7sI?version=3&hl=en_US

That fast right hand sweeper under the bridge where its often fairly sideways is over 170kph (105mph) according to the GPS laptimer data. If I had a $130,000 Porsche Caymen I don't think I would push it quite that hard, so I'm not terribly surprised about an experienced racer and driving instructor in a well setup race car pulling a few car lengths on an amatuer in an expensive road car on what sounds like one of the trickier corners at that track...

Wow I'm surprised but this many replies...........admittedly it's a bit of a rant.


L18_B110............First, no kidding the 180SX had no grip. fun but not exactly the ideal track set-up eh. Now I'm not surprised about being faster in the corners, like you I expect this given my experience but what did surprise me a little is that the other drivers found this unsettling...........albeit only two.

The drivers at this level are still transitioning from the stand er on the nose steer with the wheel vs changing trajectory with the pedals but there are usually 4 or 5 of us in peddle cars out there, so again just a little surprised...........in fact I've coached a few of the Spec Miata gang so I know they're driving in a similar manner.

As for shiny new sports cars myself and one of the guys who runs a independent Porsche shop talk about running expensive cars, he has a customer who has an immaculate Turbo and wanted to run it...........he told the customer to bring his older less pretty 911 instead................I've always had the mindset that don't race a car you can't afford to wreck.

As for flogging new cars, no different then our old sleds; last year I helped a fellow SCCA club member get to the level with her S2000...................you could hang the car out and get it to lazy drift through every corner. I do confess that it was a little tough to go back to the 1200 as much fun as it is...............once she became comfortable with the car being slightly unstuck every where she picked up several seconds per lap.............sometimes it just takes someone who really is on the limit to show you that there is quite a bit of margin........this happens to me at the motocross track, those 10 yr little basterds on 80cc bikes are fast and well I'm old and chicken.

Just fun see link below on you tube. I come into view around minute 4 (3-4 cars ahead), minute 6 starts up the front stretch and you see a Mustang who thinks he's going to pass fall way behind, especially in turn 2..............wazoo fast BMW catches me at turn 4 then passes going over siad hump in track

(I typed out the you tube video as while I know how to drive, my computer skills are lacking).

HPF M3 at Low Boost on Nitto Invo Street Tires on Road Course Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NE5zGOs76A&feature=relmfu


Tom

I too agree learning to drive in a lower hp "vintage" car is the best way to start your driving career,i've been involved in dirt speedway for the last 30 years and road circuit for the last 10 and while i too can admit to only ever being a novice racer , the time spent in 1000cc TQ midgets (three quarter speedcars in the USA) teaches you to have all the finese of sliding, throttle control, maintaining corner speed etc not to mention the finer points of chassis set-up that suprisingly have crossed over to the tar cars as well. And as you progress through the classes, midgets (4cyl 390+ rwhp) to sprintcars (V8 850+ rwhp) you also learn the art of keeping your tyres alive. And all with absolutly no electronic driver aids . I too have had the experience of doing a V8 corporate drive day at Eastern creek here in sydney and was dissapointed when the abs came on slowing down for turn 2 and then the traction control took over on the way out , allbeit saving me from embarasing myself in front of my work mates but it felt like driving a sponge that could do no wrong , not the raw "i demand respect " feeling you get from a sprintcar . but after all this it's still funny to have my wife or friends digging their fingers out of the dashboard at how fast you can actualy go round a corner.